Podcast: The modern grid: the intersection of energy and the environment

Intro (00:04):
Trailblazers in research, innovators in technology, and those who simply have a good story: all make up the fabric that is George Mason University, where taking on the grand challenges that face our students graduates in higher education is our mission and our passion. Hosted by Mason President Gregory Washington, this is the Access to Excellence podcast.

President Gregory Washington (00:26):
Infrastructure is one of those words that can mean a lot of different things to different people. At George Mason, we're focused on infrastructure in terms of sustainability: how we can help innovate new systems for the world's infrastructure that will be resilient and flexible enough to support a changing world. And we're not just talking theory here. My two guests today are at the intersection of innovation and sustainability to develop George Mason's capabilities to be a living laboratory for students, faculty, and staff to find solutions to our pressing grand challenges. Liling Huang is an associate professor of electrical and computer engineering in the College of Engineering and Computing, and she's the Dominion Energy Faculty Fellow in Power and Energy Systems. And Leah Nichols is the executive director of the Institute for Sustainable Earth, or ISE. It is in the Office of Research Innovation and Economic Impact. Leah, Liling, welcome to the show.

Leah Nichols (01:37):
Thank you.

Liling Huang (01:37):
Thank you.

President Gregory Washington (01:40):
Liling, your work focuses on securing the nation's critical energy infrastructure. Can you tell us a little more about what this means and why it's important?

Liling Huang (01:53):
Energy is a backbone of our national security, our economy, sustainability, our community trust. So without the energy we cannot have data flow, we cannot run hospitals, we cannot run data centers. So it is very, very critical infrastructure for our modern life.

President Gregory Washington (02:17):
So what kind of threats do you see that our energy and infrastructure face?

Liling Huang (02:23):
Our infrastructure is facing many challenges, uh, including the aging infrastructure. Our energy infrastructure was built more than a hundred years ago. It is aging and needs to be modernized. We also facing challenges of cyber physical attacks, we also facing challenges of the workflow shortage, the supply chain shortage, the challenge of incorporating the renewable energy into the power systems.
President Gregory Washington (02:54):
I see. Have we taken some major steps as a country or as a region to secure our energy infrastructure?

Liling Huang (03:02):
Yes. I think the public private sector are working together along with the government to secure the energy infrastructure by upgrading our infrastructure, investing in workforce development, uh, as well as bringing a more diverse energy portfolio to the system.
President Gregory Washington (03:24):
Well, that's more easily said than done, right? When you start to talk about diverse energy portfolio, that could be many other diverse energy pieces bring their own set of problems, right?

Liling Huang (03:36):
Yes, exactly.

President Gregory Washington (03:38):
So one of iscs key programs is Mason as a Living Lab. And that whole entity aims to stimulate and support the development of research and scholarship that use the campuses and their physical and social ecological structures for implementation in education. And that framework seems to be working really well. Leah, can you tell us more about how this initiative came about?

Leah Nichols (04:03):
Sure. Happy to. I came to Mason about five years ago to to run the Institute for a Sustainable Earth. And a core mission of the institute is to help put research into practice. So the campus itself is effectively a small city. There's over 48,000 people on the campus, a population that that utilizes the campus, some of whom live here. It embodies all of the different types of infrastructure systems that are required to support and maintain that population. So it's an ideal microcosm with which to engage, to study the socio-environmental technological ecosystems that make up this small city. And then it's also a microcosm within which we can develop solutions, test solutions, use it as a test bed, create some demonstration projects that could then be scaled into solutions in communities elsewhere and around the globe. So it was my first target to create opportunities to put research into practice.

Leah Nichols (04:54):
I reached out to Dr. Greg Farley, who's the director of sustainability, and he and I really jived on this idea. We really liked this idea and wanted to lean into it. So we looked at what all was going on already on campus and how faculty and students were utilizing the campus for research. Um, and learned that there was a lot going on. Our faculty are innovative and they wanna see their research put into practice. Um, but all of those projects were being, being done on an ad hoc basis. The wheel was being reinvented over and over again. And so Greg and I put our heads together along with Frank Strike, vice president for, uh, facilities and operations, campus operations, and Andre Marshall, vice president for research, to really develop a program that standardized protocols that effectively built a bridge between the research community and the facilities and operations communities. So this type of research activity could go on much more smoothly, be amplified. We also created a data sandbox to capture the data that was being collected about the university so that it could be shared across units with others who are interested in, in similar sorts of research projects.

President Gregory Washington (05:57):
Well, let's talk about scale and, uh, be a little more pragmatic. Can you gimme an idea of what kinds of projects have gone through this process? You know, just talk high level in terms of what they are and what they, what they're supposed to do.

Leah Nichols (06:12):
They do range and scale, and we have provided seed funding to, to support some new projects. Uh, they and those typically are on the order of, you know, tens of thousands, um, or so to support students and faculty who are getting ideas off the ground. Some of them are very large projects, not ones that we supported, but ones that we definitely amplify as the, that are international recognized arboretum, which has a massive amount of data about the trees on campus. Um, and like I said, internationally recognized, but we also supported very smaller scale projects. One of our very first ones that came through the new program is the Cherry Blossom Monitoring. And the math department has stood up a, a global competition where they're working with students who, um, to do statistical analysis to predict when the cherry blossoms are gonna bloom here in DC at Mason, I think in Japan, there's a couple of other international sites.

Leah Nichols (07:04):
It's, it's, it's now taken on a life of its own, but we were able to put in place working with facilities, cameras to monitor the, the, the blooms there. We also have a small project that we just funded this year that I'm, I'm quite excited about. Dr. Changwoo Ahn is taking on analysis of a corner of the campus that used to be an intermittent wetland. It's now turning into, um, a permanent wetland. And that transformation process is something that's not well studied. Um, so it creates opportunities there, but it's also of interest to the, the campus operations. Understanding this change process will help them better manage the, the wetlands and the ecosystem that's, that's emerging in this space. So, very exciting.

President Gregory Washington (07:42):
So Liling?

Liling Huang (07:43):
Yes.

President Gregory Washington (07:44):
While your smart grid lab is independent from ISE, if I'm not mistaken, right? The project is working towards a similar goal. Right? So we got two living lab concepts. So talk to me about each one of you. What does it mean to be a living lab?

Liling Huang (08:03):
To me, a living lab, it is the platform to close many, many gaps between the industry and academia, within the academia, between the students, the faculty, the staff. It's, it is a platform can bring everybody together as a community, and especially at Mason to achieve education and research.
President Gregory Washington (08:31):
Talk a little bit about how the project support experiential learning of our students.

Liling Huang (08:37):
It's bring our student, uh, career ready and build their teamwork problem solving, and it builds their confidence because they operate, they experience that they bring the theory into practice. I think it's very, very important to our students, not only to recruit, but also to retain and to advance. And I think it also will put Mason as a leading position in all the aspect. It's a very, very important tool for, for Mason and for our students.

Leah Nichols (09:15):
I would agree. Uh, a lot of faculty do take their students out of the classroom and utilize the ecosystems, the campus grounds to gather data. And while their students are learning about the tools and the data collection methods and the analytical methods for studying these types of systems, and, you know, with our lab. But we're hopeful we, we have some faculty who are already feeding this data that their, their students are collecting in courses into the data sandbox that starts to create a longitudinal data set of, um, similar sorts of data collection, um, over time. But the more that we can get, um, and encourage our faculty to get our students out utilizing the campus to develop their research skills, to develop their understanding of, of socio-environmental system theory, et cetera, is, is really exciting.

Liling Huang (09:56):
And to me, I think the, the living lab, what I see, it's beyond the lab. It is a living community, uh, living society. We can have student actually have a startup, a model startup to run this community, to run the lab, to collect the data, uh, and then to, to hire student, to be the operator. So I think this is, uh, even beyond lab, you know, like, and it, it also bridge, uh, brings in multidisciplinary collaboration between engineering, science, business and policy.

President Gregory Washington (10:33):
Well, the problems that we have to deal with today, especially in the energy space, are all multidisciplinary, right?

Liling Huang (10:41):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yes.

President Gregory Washington (10:41):
They have the technical aspects. Which are very clear. You have the social economic aspects, which in my opinion are very, very clear. And you got the political aspects which are not as clear <laugh>, uh, at least on some things, but are still clearly there, right? So, Leah, your role at the ISE is specifically around developing connections across communities to put George Mason's research and scholarship into action in support of a sustainable world. So what does it look like to build those bridges across discipline?

Leah Nichols (11:17):
Yes.

President Gregory Washington (11:18):
And talk a little bit about the receptivity on campus to building those bridges amongst our faculty and, and our, and our researchers and the like.

Leah Nichols (11:27):
Sure. Um, I was gonna say, I'm gonna go one step further and say we're building bridges across academic disciplines, but we're also working to bring external partners, people who are interested in co-designing, co-developing solutions, um, that they're experiencing in their, in their lives with local governments, local, you know, local businesses.

President Gregory Washington (11:44):
Yeah. Sometimes they can be, for lack of a better way of putting it, easier to build relationships with than the entities right here on campus.

Leah Nichols (11:51):
That can be true.

President Gregory Washington (11:53):
A couple of nights ago I had dinner with one of the founders of Nvidia. And at that dinner, they were talking, of course, they were extolling the virtues of their AI chips and the super computers that you can build from these AI chips. And one of the things that he talked about really piqued my interest that just immediately came to mind listening to you all talk about bridging the divide. Their belief is that some solutions are hyperdimensional, right? Meaning there's so many layers of possible connection that we just may not be able to see. It may not be able to draw the connection to inner city social science issues and next generation solar. Right. But that computers, especially those equipped with, uh, uh, AI generated tools, can actually explore well beyond our realm of seeing an actual problem. And so I just wanna get your reaction to that relative to this transdisciplinary work and finding solutions that right now aren't obvious to us.

Leah Nichols (13:03):
So you really hit on something I'm also excited about. One, one of the things I was doing while I was at the National Science Foundation and was trying to fund science that would advance our understanding of these complex system interactions. And the advances in the technology have really unlocked that ability. You know, science hundreds of years ago through relatively recently, was focused on a reductionist, like, let's break it down to the smallest, smallest, smallest parts to really understand what's going on. Valuable, but at like, now, we can really look at systems and try to interrogate what's the causality? Can you explain causality within systems? So these types of tools really allow us to interrogate these complex systems in really new ways, which could very much reveal opportunities to adjust to, to where to take action, how action in some spaces will potentially propagate into action. Uh, you know, this is a new area of science. I'm not, I'm not saying that we're gonna be able to explain every complex system, but what an exciting avenue of science is, is to be interrogating the complexity instead of the smallest pieces.

Liling Huang (14:03):
Yeah. I, I think that we, a a unit, an institution, we have a very limited time to learn. Very limited view. And yes, AI does provide a potential to be able to look at everything holistically, maybe come up with a good solution. But personally, I always think that, you know, everything has, it's, it's always two folded. On one side, it has one and has a zero. So I think it, it brings opportunity, but also we want to know the challenge that AI bring in to the society. So we still need a human, human in the loop to help AI do a better job. You know, we are human being, we want to have a better life. So we don't want the whole world to become just machine, just AI. So the human in the loop is very important. Uh, and that also, like all the AI computation, again, I'm the power person. So I would like to say the challenge that the AI computation bring in is the humongous energy demand to support those AI computation, and that huge energy demand is part of the challenge to our infrastructure, the impact to the environment. So how do we solve those complex problem? It's very interesting.

President Gregory Washington (15:23):
Oh, I hear you. I hear you.

Leah Nichols (15:25):
I think AI is an exciting tool, but fully agree that you have to use it cautiously. Any type of science, any type of tool, how is it gonna get used and how is it gonna be put into practice and changing the world around us. So things to think about the,

President Gregory Washington (15:37):
The challenge is that cat might be out of the bag right now, you know? So look, you both have work experience outside the academy, right? So Leah, you spend time at National Science Foundation; Liling, you were a certified, uh, professional engineer at Taiwan Development and Trust Corporation before pursuing a PhD. And so talk about those experiences and how those experiences inspire your move into higher ed, but also how those experiences are helpful for you today.

Liling Huang (16:08):
So I think it's a very valuable experience. Uh, like I work in industry and I see the challenge in industry, which the student will be, uh, facing, you know, in their career. So I see the gap between the industry and academia. I remember when I first report to, uh, my manager, I have to learn everything, you know, start from the beginning because it's, I learn all the theory. So I kind of see the importance of hands-on, practical. Uh, and also I see that the, the importance and actually to run the infrastructure, human is also, I would say like the operator. The engineer is very important and very critical part of the infrastructure. So I see the gap and I see the importance of having a skillful engineer workforce. And that's why, uh, inspire me to build a career in academia because I think that, uh, it is a very prestigious position to train and educate a future engineer. And that experience helped me to better embed, improve my teaching, uh, education and research to be able to bring in the practical challenge and experience into the education and research.

President Gregory Washington (17:31):
Interesting.

Leah Nichols (17:31):
So while I was at the National Science Foundation, one of my primary roles was to help build and design these multidisciplinary, and transdisciplinary types of funding programs to fund different types of science. Again, focusing predominantly on socioecological systems and the, the role of, of those systems and how those are changing. And then toward the latter part, while I was engaged with an advisory council, they gave us very strong advice. Like we're, we've been describing the challenges of the world for a while, quite a long time in the socio-environmental systems. What do we start doing about it? And that really helped drive me to think about like, what type of science needs to be done so that we can start taking action to address these grand challenges, these wicked challenges. And as a, a program officer, I was facilitating those sorts of dialogues across disciplines so that I bring back to the table here at Mason, getting lots of people with very different worldviews in the same room to come to a, a common understanding of need and opportunity and ways that we can support, uh, science to develop solutions in these space. I was also often one of the voices in the room saying, how do we bring the spaces of research use into the, the scientific questions or the science that we're funding? How do we get use-inspired science where community partners or industry partners are, are deeply engaged in development of the science itself or the co-design of the science.

President Gregory Washington (18:50):
So one of the solutions in our grand challenge initiative is George Mason at the center of building a climate resilience society. Now, you two sit in different components of that spectrum, right, of building a climate resilient society. And so as two researchers dedicated to innovation and sustainability, what does climate resiliency mean to you? Right. And what do you see as the grand challenge in your space?

Leah Nichols (19:18):
So a climate resilience society, I, I will say, you know, we are in the throes of climate change. We are now experiencing more intense storms, greater and in longer, and durations of heat, shifts in seasonal, um, patterns. However, a lot of our communities, as, as, uh, Liling was saying earlier, a lot of our infrastructure was built decades, if not centuries ago, uh, well before climate change was even underway or understood to be underway. And so there's vulnerabilities, and we need to start accounting for how the changing climate and the, the information that we're receiving, um, now about how the ecosystems are working and the physical systems are working into managing those, the infrastructure and the, the systems that comprise communities. That means understanding and like really looking at where are the risks? What types of changes in the flood patterns or the rainfall patterns or the heat indices, where are those gonna cause the most damage?

Leah Nichols (20:18):
And then how do we start, um, mitigating that type of damage? What interventions do we need to put in place so that when events happen, when significant rainfall happens and floods occur, infrastructure and people are outta the way not damaged? Or what can we do to make sure that those systems are, can sort of go down for a short while and then come right back up? They're not being destroyed. So identifying where there's risk, identifying opportunities to make changes to ensure that our, our systems are sustainable and can withstand the consequences or the, the more extreme weather and the, the different weather and climate effects that we're experiencing now is, is really important.

Liling Huang (20:58):
And to me, I think Leah meant, you know, the cause--it's very, very important, like to build a climate, uh, resilient society, we need to understand and the cause and to observe the pattern, and from the engineering perspective, from the energy infrastructure, we need to know if we are part of the cause, how do we improve that? How do we reduce that from the design operate perspective to support that? And also, when this type of extreme weather occurred, how can we continuously provide reliable energy? Because that's the backbone of everything, of our daily life. So to build a resilient climate, uh, you know, uh, society, I, I see that all our six grand challenges touch this topic. And this is actually the core to connect all the six challenges together. We need the 21st century workforce, uh, to build a climate resilience society. We need the digital, we need the AI, we need a healthcare system, we need everything. And then our grand challenges right on top of that.

President Gregory Washington (22:11):
Okay. Well, let's <laugh> let's dive into this a little bit. This whole concept of building a climate resilient society really is not about understanding climate change from the perspective of whether it's manmade or whether it's just a natural artifact of the changing cycles in the way our planet is progressing. It's really about saying whatever's causing it, we have some challenges, right? We have major challenges on both coast <laugh>. One can't get enough water and it's burning, and the other one is literally getting too much. And, you know, we've had multiple 500, uh, year biblical floods in a number of locations. This is about what happens as we deal with the aftermath of climate change, building a climate resilient society. Our climate is changing. Our society has to change in order to accommodate it. And so, yes, everything you guys highlighted, we need faculty, we need folk trained properly in order to manage this.

President Gregory Washington (23:25):
Right? But what I'm getting at here is: talk a little bit about deal with the political issues that may be dividing us on the causality aspect of this problem. How do we get away from that and focus on the fact that, look, I don't care what your belief is, you're flooding and we need a solution for that. We need a a new home type system for that, or we need a solution to help you mitigate that, or a warning system to keep you out of that. Or communications framework that helps you to understand when these things are coming so you can react. Talk about that a little bit.

Leah Nichols (24:04):
The, what you were just saying is essential. We need to address the problems of today, as you just said, coasts are being inundated, communities are being destroyed, literally, um, quite literally. Um, and in a repeated way, both from wildfires and extreme like downpours and flooding in, in places that you would not expect floods to happen. And it, it's happening outside of the floodplains that we understand from before. Severe wind and tornadoes are taking down, you know, there's a lot of damage to infrastructure and people and livelihoods all across the country. So we do need to be addressing the challenges that we're experiencing today. I think one of the things that we need to do differently is a lot of the, like I said, the, the prior infrastructure and the risk assessments are typically looking retrospectively. Like what has happened in the past that we need to plan for now.

Leah Nichols (24:52):
Like you, you mentioned 500 year floods. In the past, those types of floods did happen once every 500 years or so. Now, the science is able to, to, to provide some predictions about what the future trends are going to be in these areas. And so in order to plan and, and address infrastructure challenges of today, we should be looking at what the best available science is telling us about where things are going so that we can start accounting for that in, in the way that we build our infrastructure systems. I mean, you might say climate science, but you, you might also just say, this is best available science of how many floods are gonna happen.

President Gregory Washington (25:27):
Or, this is just community planning now, right? Look, if, if the flood plain is shifting and it's going to be here now, it's not build the homes there, let's shift them and build them a mile two miles away, where it might've been a problem previously, but maybe it's not that now you, you, you get what I'm saying?

Leah Nichols (25:47):
And it's, some of it's the floodplains that themselves are shifting, but a lot of what's happening now is this heavy, heavy, heavy downpours, you know?

President Gregory Washington (25:53):
No, I, I get it. I get it. I mean, places that were flooding previously, this is what happened with the young people in, uh, in, in Texas. Texas, right?

Leah Nichols (26:04):
Yes, that was terrible.

President Gregory Washington (26:04):
You know, look, the reality is is that the, the area always flooded. And that's why nobody really worried about it too much. But we live in a different time now. We need tools to predict that. We need tools to say, Hey, based on our predictive models, what's coming is not what you saw five years ago, 10 years ago. This is different. Get out. Right. And so that's the kind of thing that I want us to get to as we build a climate resilient society. Liling, I I know I interrupted you. Go ahead.

Liling Huang (26:36):
No, no, you're good.

President Gregory Washington (26:38):
Uh, I, I, you know, because youre, you're in the, you're, you are literally in the core space of this with energy production.

Liling Huang (26:44):
Yes. As long as they are human activities, we impact the environment, but there's no way we'll go back to live in the cage, uh, without electricity, going back to, you know, millions years back. So how do we better design and, and live in the environment to reduce the impact? And President Washington, you mentioned, like, to design a climate resilient society is not just the science, not the engineering, but it's the society. My experience, my view is a lot of community, they do not have the access to the data, to the fact people make decision based on the feeling, their perspective, a very limited perspective on maybe just economy or maybe just political or, you know, they, they all look at a smaller set of their view and, which cannot solve the problem. Uh, you, you see, like even the energy policy, you roll out the energy policy for the next five years, and all of a sudden you change, and then who knows, then next five years it change again.

Liling Huang (27:56):
I think what the, the challenge is, uh, to have a holistic view of the multidisciplinary: from the social, from the business, from the political, from engineering, from science. And again, the core is the community, is the human. So I think that's actually what I see, the, the challenge. And then I think that we have the responsibility to deliver the message, uh, to deliver the holistic fact and data to inform that, you know, this is going to happen if you don't take this action. And then I think everyone is responsible, you know, on the building the resilient society.

Leah Nichols (28:39):
I was also gonna add, 'cause I, I, I didn't talk much about mitigation of climate, the carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, but that is something we might wanna be very, very thoughtfully considering as we address climate resiliency. Things that keep me up at night are, um, you know, we have trajectories and the science is starting to tell us that some systems are going to start collapsing. And we're talking about like ocean systems and sea level rise, and well, what's gonna happen to our agriculture system? I mean, there's some of these existential challenges that might be on the horizon that we're still working on getting the science about when is that gonna happen? Is that gonna happen? Those sorts of things. But there is signals that we do really need to be addressing how much carbon dioxide we're putting into the atmosphere so that we hopefully keep us below some of those tipping points. We'll see.

President Gregory Washington (29:24):
As we move forward here. And, and if you were to be having conversations with our young people today, as you do in the classroom and beyond, or even with our faculty as, as we end, what are some of the ways individuals can help create climate resilient communities and ensure sustainable future?

Leah Nichols (29:43):
One of the most effective ways of, of creating resiliency within a community is, is actually reaching out to your, your neighbors and your community. Understanding where people are vulnerable, helping them address those vulnerabilities if and when possible. Recognizing that you, you might wanna go up the street and check on somebody in, in the context of a disaster so that you can help them create some resiliency. The more that we connect and create community, the stronger those communities are, regardless of the infrastructure. Though, ideally you also are engaged in the processes that will upgrade and, and increase the resiliency of the critical infrastructures of those communities.

Liling Huang (30:18):
Yeah. Uh, for me, I always encourage my student and emphasize the importance of having a critical thinking skill. They are the future, uh, generation. They're the future engineer to build the system, to operate the system. So critical thinking, skill and teamwork, it's very important. Uh, one person cannot solve a problem. You need a team. You need people from different skillset, from different perspective. Also, to be able to work with a team to drive the innovation and critical thinking. Uh, you don't always believe what you hear. Right. You have to be able to critically evaluate before you accept it. I think that's very, very important. Not just, you know, uh, receive what we were told and then execute that. I think critical thinking, very important. So you don't be influenced or misled easily.

President Gregory Washington (31:16):
Understood. Understood. Well, look, this has been fantastic. Last point. Just quickly, lightning round. What's given you hope for the future?

Liling Huang (31:27):
I think the, the hope of the future, uh, is our next generation. It is here, Mason, our faculty, our student. I think that's the future. And then the infrastructure side, you know, the research, and again, our theme, like our living lab that give us hope of the future.

Leah Nichols (31:48):
What gives me hope is, is the amount of people who are working hard to solve these types of problems. You know, faculty as well as students in the next generation, despite significant headwinds in some contexts. There's, there's a lot of people in the world in the United States and, and far beyond that are really committed to, and digging into solving these sorts of challenges. And that's the only way things are gonna get done, is we just keep on working, keep on designing. I think there's, there's a lot of opportunities to innovate. I just look for the people who are doing things, good things, um, and there's a lot of them through the living labs and through the Institute for Sustainable Earth, always wanting to help and support those individuals here in the Mason community and beyond.

President Gregory Washington (32:31):
Outstanding. Outstanding. Well, we're gonna have to leave it there. Liling and Leah, thank you both for joining us today.

Liling Huang (32:39):
Thank you.

Leah Nichols (32:40):
Thank you so much for having us.

Leah Nichols (32:41):
Thank you so much. I am Mason President Gregory Washington. Thanks for listening. And tune in next time for more conversations that show why we are all together different.

Outro (32:56):
If you like what you heard on this podcast, go to podcast.gmu.edu for more of Gregory Washington's conversations with the thought leaders, experts, and educators who take on the grand challenges facing our students, graduates, and higher education. That's podcast.gmu.edu.